Check out Sumuyya's postal exhibition with OUTPUT here
Hello and welcome to the OUTPUT Gallery podcast, my name is Gabrielle de la Puente. OUTPUT is a space in Liverpool city centre that works exclusively with creatives from or based in Merseyside. On today's episode we are joined by Sumuyya Khader, the latest artist to work with us on our postal exhibition series. She has created a print with a portrait on one side and a poem on the other that she will talk about later in this episode. Sumuyya is an artist, illustrator and printmaker. Her imagery often works with people and place. So - welcome to the podcast. We normally start every episode in the same way, as listeners know at this point, by asking people - what is your relationship like with art, and where did that relationship come from?

My relationship with art... so I was lucky to grow up in a house that really embraced art. My Mum was the type of parent who would be like, do you want to do a painting? Then we'd hang it on the line to dry. In a way, not a ridiculous way, a really beautiful way, it became quite natural to create something visually that then - she'd be like, what were you thinking? Where did that come from, why those colours? Not in a super-precious way, just in a- you've made something or you're singing something or you're doing something, and that was my beginnings of it. It got slowly eroded away by the time I went to secondary school and actually did a GCSE in art, where it was just the worst thing going. A teacher who was really frustrated by having 30+ kids in a classroom, trying to teach them about perspective, trying to do a still-life drawing, it was really basic and it took the joy. Like, everyone needs to replicate this thing, and if you don't do it using those materials, then you're going to fail. So it's been a bit of a journey, to be fair.

Was the rest of your arts education, did that continue to erase the joy or were you able to pick up that initial energy you found making stuff with your mum in the garden?

It had peaks and waves. Going to university to study fine art, you've got your first year excitement. I never did a foundation course. I started one and left after a week, so for me that was the fun experimentation, looking at loads of artists and reading and having the time to do that, the time to play and mess about. Obviously, as you progress through, it becomes the written aspect of the degree, which is just awful for an arts degree, for me anyway. To be in that situation where academically, now you're being graded on this artistic thing... I still find it quite a weird practice. We still grade in a very high-end, privileged, academia process for these creative outlets. So everyone really is held to the same account and accord. It depends on which tutor looks at it at which time, you always have a tutor who loves it and one who absolutely hates it. It was very up and down, but even after doing a degree, I naturally just weaved. That's how I've come back to it now, finding space to create things purely for myself, whether that's out of joy or out of frustration, on my own terms. It's back to expressive, emotion, freedom type of creating.

Do you feel like you had to go through the typical university system, all the rigmarole of that, in order to get to this point?

I don't know, I actually think, it would have been beautiful if I didn't need to do that and get into debt. I feel like at the time, I worked part-time as I went through uni, so I would be in the studio til 5, go to a shift at the place I was working, stay there til half 10, 11, have a shower, get up, go to uni. That was my uni life for the most part. I think potentially, if I wasn't doing that... I wasn't living at home, I wasn't working to pay bills, I was just going to do the course and fully immerse myself, it might have been different. But the end result, with higher education or not with it, if it's something you're passionate about and you make time for it, it will happen. It might not happen at a huge scale but it'll happen enough to justify it to you personally.

What type of stuff were you making when you were in uni?

I went through- at the beginning, I was in a painterly phase, a lot of abstract work and layering with colour. I've always been a person who walks around the city and takes photos, a lot of it is based off scenes you see. Even though it was very abstract. I would walk round for 4/5 hours and just absorb things.

Do you know what, so did I. That is like, how I spent my teenage years. I bet there was point we walked past each other with our little cameras and never knew in ten years we'd be sitting together recording a podcast.

That's how it goes.

I used to just get lost, I'd be up in the North Docks taking pictures, it'd be getting dark and I'd need to figure out how to get back to me Nan's, the sun is setting.

That was really fun, and then it moved from doing that... I don't know why, I think it's linked in to my unfortunate work ethic now. I switched to these really intense pencil drawings, I'd take photos and abstract it and make an ink drawing and abstract that, and project it, and make these crazy pencil drawings. Some of them were 2 foot wide or a foot wide, I'd make loads of small marks and they'd take 12 or 14 hours of a studio session to do. When I graduated, that was my focus. I got really back into pencil and paper and layering tones and making drawings. Which is a strange one, but it was quite nice. No one else was doing it in the course... you know you always have your painters, and your sculpture-led people, no one was doing the weird drawing thing at the time.

I still think it's like that - drawing is like, too naked or something, too vulnerable. There's too much skill required, people back off and don't want to go there.

Yeah, it's interesting.

So you've always had a very process-heavy practice, it sounds like, is that fair to say?

I think so yeah, sometimes I don't know what that process is, but for me it always starts with walking round and looking at things and being excited or curious about things. Looking at material and what material would work best to express it, the fact that the first time you do it might not be the finished things, it's a process of making something. It might start off as a sketch or a note in your phone, these days, that's what it is. It naturally develops from there.

How did the switch from art student to arts professional go? How long did that take, was it instant, was it easy?

I don't think I've made the switch yet if I'm honest with you, I don't know.


Yeah, yeah.

You're an arts professional, you are! You work in the arts full time.

I do, but it doesn't- it's a weird one. It depends what you view the arts as, I guess that's the crux of it. For me, the arts is more open, so the day job blends into that whole world of being in the arts. For some, if you're not painting or you're not in a studio for 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, are you an artist? Yeah, but, you know... so I think, post-uni, I got this residency at Metal and I had a free studio space for a year, which is amazing. Part of that was really strange, looking back I would have done it totally different. Obviously you're out of uni, you've got a studio space, but you also because you're out of uni need to get a full time job, need to earn a living, when can I come to the studio, how am I going to get there, how am I going to get home, all that basic stuff comes into play. So it was like, having a bit of fun. It was really open, which was really nice. It felt quite easy but never felt like I was a practising artist at that point. It's only in the last year that it's actually become more officially a thing. Obviously Liverpool is quite small so people will know your name, but might not necessarily associate that with you being an artist. You're in the arts, but are you someone who is practising, as an artist? I think it's quite different. Obviously being a black woman and being in the arts, your name gets batted around in a different way, which I've learned recently. People reach out with you and it's not opportunities about your art, it's about their project, that is missing a voice. For me, that tells me that people haven't quite accepted the practice side of things yet.

Because they just want you for your identity, they don't want you because you work in print, or colour etc.

Exactly, and I don't think that's limited to me, and I don't think that's limited to Liverpool. 100% it's not, because so many of us face the same thing. I have reached the point now where I've become quite confident in saying no, or why. Give me a wooden spoon and a pot and I'll stir it, now. Not in a bad way, I'm just going to ask a bunch of questions and you don't need to know the answer but you need to ask yourself these questions because something ain't right, here. So examine that, and go away, and the next person you approach, approach them with more care and consideration than you've approached me.

And more personalisation, yeah.

Exactly, yeah. It's not unique, I'm sure it's happened to you as well.

Yeah. I think that switch, where you get to a point where you don't cower in front of the institution, feel like you have to say yes to every opportunity because opportunities are scarce and you need to for a career... it's so powerful to realise that at the end of the day it's one drop in something, it might not lead to anything else and they're getting more out of it than you are. They're the ones on full salaries.


With pensions, benefits, sick pay, and you're the freelancer. How are they going to offer you something that's balanced in any way? It's rough.

It's one of them things isn't it, we just don't learn about the things we should be learning about. We're not educated in the way that we should be about money, about how to say no, about self-worth, about how to manage stress, about how to manage health issues, how to support people, how to support yourself... all of these things that we make all the mistakes on and go through all the really shit moments... can I swear?

Of course!

Just making sure! We go through these really shit moments, and we suffer through it and then we learn from it. Life is a learning experience. Some things should be more shareable so when you come to tackle it, you're not alone. I know there's someone out there who's gone through something who can relate to that moment I'm experiencing. Which means there's hope. We just don't learn about... education is fucked.

That's what kills me, though - is this new, is this our generation trying to click things into place? Have people been doing this before and their efforts have been lost to time? Is our generation also martyring itself to try and fix stuff, will anything change?

No! If you think about it, therapy is a really good example. If you know people who are slightly more privileged, their experience of therapy is this wonderful, magnificent transformative thing where they go and air their issues. That's a privileged position to be in. But we don't get told, I never knew that you can go speak to a therapist and they'll speak through things that are in your head, messing you up. They'll rationalise it and help you work through and that's completely normal, because you can't work through it alone, sometimes. Not knowing that, not having a parent who is trained as a therapist, not having the funds to access that way of living and that privilege in itself... it exists, it's been happening for years, therapy existed before this generation that is demanding free access, which we are completely entitled to. We know that there's issues, but those issues only get addressed for the privileged and everyone else can just suffer, work through it and figure it out. But we've set this system up over here which is accessed only by the fortunate.

And we're trying to climb into it.

Exactly - it's madness.

But, speaking of changing things for the better, one thing you have been able to achieve because you felt like it was something missing that you wanted to correct, was by setting up Granby Press. Do you want to describe what Granby Press is and what it does for any listeners who aren't familiar?

Yeah, so Granby Press is in essence a print studio. So it's based in the L8 area of Liverpool and... how do I describe it... it's a Risograph studio and the focus is on print media, and a little bit about communicating what that is, showing people that it is possible to communicate in other ways that aren't just verbal. Because especially now, post lockdown, it's quite intimidating to enter back into conversations in real life with people. So it's kind of like, we all communicate in different ways, different mediums, how can we make one print a thing again, because it is a dying media? To help people communicate in whatever language, whether it is visually or with words, how can we support that? And by we at the moment, I mean it's just me. My long term vision is that it won't just be me, I might not even be involved in the future, who knows.

Yeah, I was going to ask whether you were ever going to bring other people in.

Well I guess, part of the spur on to make it happen was being fed the absolute bullshit from the media of, the vibe is working class divide between white and other. People are stealing things from other people, vote for this person because they'll bring the jobs back and they'll support it and then Brexit fucking happened. It's a divide where people are being attacked on the street. It's like, the news that we are reading, and we are being fed, obviously is not right and not for us, so there's the opportunity now on a really local level, I'm talking like in the space of a 5-10 minute walk for people, making newsletters and sharing information that's in their voice, that is sent to those people who need to know that this shop is closing, to get your local shop you need to go here for the best price. If you want to get your fruit and veg, they're setting up a cash machine on the corner if you want to oppose it, a developer's just bought this site.... all this information, locally. An area can change just overnight by just a few people coming in and implementing something, if that information is shared in a really effective way that re-empowers us all. Also for when the council come a-knockin' and ask to do something, it's like, no no no, look at this. We know about this and this that's happening, we've been talking about it, we've been sharing it. So when is this community meeting, we'll come to it and we'll collectively voice our opinion. That's a huge ramble, I'm so sorry.

This is the place for you to ramble, you've got the platform, go for it!

That's one side of it, that's my key, getting that set up. That requires people locally to be involved and I haven't quite figured out how that will happen yet because I'm doing it all on days off. The other side is obviously just printing beautiful things for people whether they are artists, designers, whether they want to test it out. Being able to offer that, trying to keep it as affordable as possible, to be like- you want to know how it works? OK, come in and test print something, if you like the aesthetic let's figure out how to print a run for you, what are you after, what do you need it to look like, here's some examples... all of that stuff, I guess.

When OUTPUT went from real life exhibitions to postal exhibitions, we obviously got in touch with you to produce most of those as well. So if any listeners received prints from Jon Edgley, Radical Womxn's Dance Party, Podge, Mali Draper & Dan Waine... am I missing any others? I think that's it. Of course Sumuyya's as well - they were all produced at Granby Press and they look great.

Thank you. It was the first proper print run I've done as a studio, so it was really nice to get a sneak peek of everyone's work and I hope that OUTPUT gets the chance to do something else with them all. I know it's transferred from having a physical space to them being on a two-sided sheed of a3, it's quite different. But it still blows my mind that other galleries aren't doing what... I'm going to divert the conversation... other galleries aren't doing what OUTPUT is doing, where it's really obvious but really beautiful. Working with a wide variety of local artists, across the board, whether you're at uni, just graduated from uni, never been to uni, your first show, whatever your art practice may be, here's a space, let's have a conversation and let's see how we can support each other in doing something. Why isn't that everyone's gallery programme? They've all so much fucking money as well!

I know, I know! Imagine if OUTPUT had the budget of Tate. We'll see, we'll see!

You'll be shopping in Cos every week.

I'll finally look like a curator! I'd never want to do that. I want to wear band t-shirts and playstation hoodies. Anyway, back to the conversation... so getting on to the work that you made for OUTPUT, this is a bit of a leading question because I saw you post a little about it on Instagram as well. How has your practice flourished - I think it's flourished - over the pandemic? The print you've done, for anyone who has not seen it yet, it's again a Riso print but it incorporates elements of painting, colour and poetry as well.

Flourish is such a good word.

But it has - you're everywhere! You were like - I don't know if this was a fever dream, but you did stuff for England football club?

I did! The FA! I forgot about that.

You've done loads.

Sorry if you're sick of seeing my shit, I apologise.

Your stuff is everywhere. It's amazing.

Yeah. It's annoying. I shouldn't say that - it's proper boss. I guess, where the print came from, is- for me, I've had a really fortunate lockdown, really really fortunate. I'm not going to lie about it in the slightest. Part of that is due to absolute graft, I'm knackered. I'm shattered. I'm done. The bags under my eyes, my parents comment on them weekly now, that's how bad it is. Yeah, soz mum if you're listening but you do. I basically took a gamble, so to speak, partly being really frustrated by some of the stuff I was seeing and then partly being really inspired, by the Liverpool stuff I was delving into, the independent scene, artists and collectives. I'm not gonna lie, the majority of them were people of colour who obviously we all reached a point last year where it was just, enough is e-fucking-nough. Come on. Human decency at its most basic is being violated at every turn, we are sick of it, let's speak up, let's scream, let's speak up, let's keep speaking up, let's contact people. That, in itself, just gave me this energy. I express myself visually, and that's just what I started doing, visually expressing myself and sharing it with people. From that, people started to get in touch and I know in part it is because you look and you're like, I need to find a black, female artist to fit this thing for a job. I accepted some of those jobs, I asked questions, and there was conversations around it, but I was like - this is an exciting opportunity, let's jump on it. One of them was like, I e-mailed a bunch of organisations I'd worked with in Liverpool who had posted those fucking black squares and said, black lives matter? What are you doing? I'm local, I'm a punter, I'm a visitor to your gallery, what are you doing? I'm not gonna lie, the majority of people just gave really shit responses and I'm not surprised about it. Do you want to come and have a zoom chat with us? No, because I'm not part of your board, you're not paying me a consultancy fee to come and advise you, I'm asking a question.

I'm sorry but even if they do pay you a consultancy fee, like, what's that?

It's just like, I'm asking you a really basic question that any member of the public is entitled to ask you, and you're telling me - oh, we've got a board meeting in a month to discuss it. Can we get back to you then? If you can't tell me something from the get-go, what are you doing?

They're run by public money as well, so it's just an extra kick in the face, isn't it?

Exactly, exactly. I'm only one person asking a question, I'm sure I'm not the only one who e-mailed. But some people were really receptive, like Everyman Playhouse. Their director at the time was just like, thanks for getting in touch Sumuyya, obviously like, usual sharing of information but also like, I've been looking at your posts and seeing online things, would you be up for a conversation because I'd like to ask some questions but also you can ask me some questions? It didn't feel like a board thing, it felt like it could be a good conversation and through that I ended up doing these posters for them and it's nice because it also meant I can mention, I got opportunities to write a little thing for Ethos magazine and through that, the Everyman saw someone else and now they're doing a little jazz residency. I always say, it's this thing of, I'm a big mouth online, in person it depends on the situation. My thing is always mentioning other people. Part of that- what was it called? There was a little fund, the wall thing.

What was that called? I can't remember. Was it through Culture Liverpool?

Yeah, and doing that was great because I got to work with five other people and say to the Bluecoat, can we use your wall, these are the people that will be on it.

Do you want to name who you chose?

Yeah, so we had, Jamel Burke wrote a piece that was about Blundell, who set up the Bluecoat, and Blundell Street, where it was. Amber Akaunu - apologies Amber if I've said your surname wrong, it's really bad of me if I have.

Salma did one didn't she?

Yeah, Salma Noor, Kiara Mohamed, he did a piece, and Millie Olateju also did a piece. It's really nice, because everyone identifies as black, which is magic, and we're all in Liverpool. So when people say there's no artists of colour in Liverpool, it's absolute bullshit. That's just a small teaser of visual art, that's not even touching on music or writing or poetry or anything else. That's purely visual art, and most of those people have a multi-disciplinary practice as well.

That's true.

Moments like that are really great because it's like, guys, do you want to do something collectively? It's authored by you, it's your piece of work, are you happy for it to be included in this very small thing. It's part of an institutions wall, so now they have to do something, they have to respond, they have to respect us. If you want to do a show, email them! Now we all have each other's emails, that's the other thing. People are accessible, nobody needs to be a gate keeper. If you actually are running an institution and you want to cater for these fucking audiences that you claim to want to cater for, these hard-to-reach audiences, be accessible! Why is no one in your curatorial team accessible to anyone in the community? It's BS, come on.

It's because, I feel like we know the answers. They don't want to speak to people, they're only interested in like, a certain sect of people who are achieving and already exhibiting and already got a cultural cachet. They don't do INPUT events, they should!

They really should. The thing is, they'd do them but I don't know if they'd listen. This isn't everyone, you always get people who are really trying to change it. That's a bigger question - should we still be trying to change things or should we just be setting up our own things? That's a whole other kettle of fish but I'm very pro-the other way.


You always have people who go into it, hand on heart, wanting to do the things that they chat about in the pub. Obviously these places aren't going to change, why would they? They're getting all the money.

It's not in their interests to change.

Exactly. It's like - we need to do something else.

One question I wanted to ask, in terms of all the different outcomes for your work over the past year, how do you balance the art side of things with the design side? Often you work across the two.

The balancing thing I'm still trying to figure out, if I'm totally honest. I guess - it's a weird one, I'm a freelancer, self-employed but also fully-employed in a job that is also within the arts. I also like to create art for joy, just for my own self expression and mental health. Sometimes the one thing that I should prioritise, creating art for my own benefit, falls to the wayside. The balance of designing is, if it's something really exciting to me that I think I could offer something valuable to, and I'll learn while doing it, then I'll put it as a priority. That's only changed in the past 4 or 5 months. There's a moment where you know you're in demand, not crazy in demand, but you know... it's like, oh, freelancing isn't just a slog, it's nice to be getting paid to do work. There's the fear, what if I never get another freelance job, so I've just got to say yes. I'm out of that, the fear's still there but the saying yes to everything has stopped. That just happens, we all go through it, it happens at different stages for different people. Right now the designing of things happens when it's something that is really exciting, or interesting, or that I think will be a beneficial learning curve for me, I'll do it.

Within that busy-ness, having a job and your freelance work, and then you've got the art on top of that, that almost feels like the most free stuff but the stuff that you don't have time for... where does your inspiration come in? Like, who are the artists that you're interested in. Who are the people or the writers or the musicians? Who are you thinking about?

I guess social media has really bad points, but it is also, during lockdown, I've taken it as more of an inspiration route. Seeing places like Home, by Ronan McKenzie, in London being set up. Joy getting a show. Their work I've been following for years and I finally bought one of Joy's prints, which I'm buzzed about because I saved up to get it.

That's boss.

Seeing my generation of artists come through and get shows whether that is within institutions or a small-scale independent, a group of friends that have set something up, it makes me think - this is possible, and exciting, and beautiful to see. We all watch each other and support each other and follow each other and comment when we see things - that's what an art community should be. It shouldn't be, getting paid a million, getting paid these ridiculous amounts of money. Everyone wants to earn a decent paycheck and wishes they could be the next big things but the reality of an art practice, for me, is seeing my contemporaries do well, having opportunities, making work and being paid for it. Being able to visit their shows and interact. Part of it is social media, Whatsapp groups even, being part of it. Seeing people buzzing about something, whether its a book, a movie, an album just dropped. The Jazmine Sullivan album dropped and everyone was like, fuck yes! This is what we need! Just moments of collective recognition of other, there's more than just me in a shit moment out there. There's things we can take with us and hold with us. Whether we use it to create a piece of work or just get through the day, like. That's the inspiration. It's very vague. There's the OG painters and people that are really inspiring and the contemporaries now, seeing all these black painters come to the forefront and get these shows and get these commissions and be in the moment, that's amazing. On a level below that, there's really exciting things happening and spaces being set up and people taking charge and even with the billboard stuff, and the way that art is viewed, where it can be on a bus stop, or a wall, and you can walk past it or be on the bus and glimpse it. The ways in which we view art has changed. It's inspiring to follow people online who are doing that, who are actively putting art out there in different ways, if that makes sense.

It does, it totally does. So maybe then to end this interview, will you please describe the print that you made for OUTPUT and tell us your thinking behind it?

Yeah, so the print for OUTPUT, I really struggled and I knew I had to make a print way in advance of making it. But I'm a last minute person. It's awful to say but I fully admit it and I've always been this way. But I panic and then I make something.

That's your process, that's fine, there's no need to feel guilty for that! I'm the opposite - as soon as I get the thing I'll do it and then forget about it for a month.

I'm the type of person who will make 20 drafts - when someone's expecting 3, I'll make 20. So that's just my work process. For this it was like - what do I want to say? I also had the really privileged position of printing a few of these posters people have done, and I was really torn about - Radical Womxn's Dance Party was so informative and vital and this huge resource. Do I want to be a resource? How do I be a resource? I was over-thinking it and I lost the thing, how do I feel right now? I'm knackered, I don't know what to do, I like making art and making stuff about figures. I'm exploring painting in my own time. How can I merge all this together? That was the thinking behind it, it sounds really daft, but it's really simple. I'm just a woman who is- not at the end of my tether, but I'm doing too much. I need a little bit of a break, but I love doing it, so I want to make something beautiful. It's abstract, a bit obscure, it's obviously a woman's face but strokes have covered out all of the features. That's basically it, how I'm feeling right now. I wrote a thing on the back which is just, I sat and wrote it. I'm not a writer, I'm not a poet, but- you know when you just need to say something? At the end of it, I needed to say to myself, you are joy. Just remember, at the end of it all, it isn't a big thing, just get through the day. It's not some big transformative thing but it is for me. I hope for other people it's a nice thing to look at.

It's gorgeous! Obviously the poem on the back is more contemplative but the image does feel like there's joy in it. There's so much energy because of how you've put the picture together. Do you want to just also quickly describe what a riso print is, for anyone that isn't familiar? I've realised we're talking about it because we both know what it is.

So I guess the way I would describe it, a mixture of screenprinting and a photocopier. So, the machine reads everything in grayscale but outputs in colour. It's like screenprinting because you print one colour at a time and it's in a grayscale tone, is how you set it up. Because it is soya based ink you can create really beautiful tones and colours, depending on how you lay each layer down - what colour you print on top of another colour might produce a happy surprise, or a bit of a mess. It's quite an unpredictable way of printing. If you want a beautiful, clean, really precise print, don't do riso. Over the past 15 years it's been used by a lot of graphic designers and artists as a way to create things in a new visual way. It's exciting, it's nice that it is soya-based, it's not a huge amount of setup and I like the fact that every print is different because it always misaligns. There's this really unique quality to it. But it's not for everyone. The most difficult thing in relation to the press I have found is saying no to people, not because I don't want to print it, just because their expectations are so radically different to what this machine can do. We can test it but it's not going to look like that, there's no way I can get A to look like B and if you can't deal with the potential of C then don't do it.

It's funny as well because I think, if you didn't know what a riso print was, the people that we send the prints out to only ever get one of them. So they'll never be able to put two alongside each other and compare them and see what you're talking about. But it is there, and I also just wanted you to explain it because you've used so many colours on your print, so it must have taken forever.

It's only four colours... that's the layering. It's playing around with it and seeing what's possible. It could have been really dull and dark, and that might have worked, but it actually turned out to be fairly bright and colourful and expressive, which is amazing.

It looks great, thank you for making it. Unfortunately for any listeners, they've all gone. They got claimed very very quickly. If you're listening and you're interested in receiving a postal print, we've got more to come that are getting produced by Sumuyya at Granby Press, so just keep an eye out. If you want to see pictures of the print, just go to outputgallery.com and there's images of both sides, the portrait and the poem. You can find out a little more about Sumuyya, unless this podcast has filled in all the gaps. Where can people find you on the internet?

On the internet, you can find me on... depends what you're looking for. If you want visual stuff, instagram is the way, which is just my name, @sumuyya. If you want a bit more social commentary, a bit more engagement, a bit more actual reactions to the shit that goes on, twitter - also @sumuyyaa with an extra a. I have a website, sometimes a print shop...

What's your website?

Just sumuyyakhader.com, it's difficult to spell, you'll probably spell it wrong but that's OK.

It'll be on the title of this podcast, don't worry, it's fine! Thank you so much for speaking to me and we'll see you listeners on the next podcast. Bye bye!