July 17 - 30
|Transcription of podcast interview with Sumuyya Khader
and welcome to the OUTPUT Gallery podcast, my name is Gabrielle de la
Puente. OUTPUT is a space in Liverpool city centre that works
exclusively with creatives from or based in Merseyside. On today's
episode we are joined by Sumuyya Khader, the latest artist to work with
us on our postal exhibition series. She has created a print with a
portrait on one side and a poem on the other that she will talk about
later in this episode. Sumuyya is an artist, illustrator and
printmaker. Her imagery often works with people and place. So - welcome
to the podcast. We normally start every episode in the same way, as
listeners know at this point, by asking people - what is your
relationship like with art, and where did that relationship come from?
relationship with art... so I was lucky to grow up in a house that
really embraced art. My Mum was the type of parent who would be like,
do you want to do a painting? Then we'd hang it on the line to dry. In
a way, not a ridiculous way, a really beautiful way, it became quite
natural to create something visually that then - she'd be like, what
were you thinking? Where did that come from, why those colours? Not in
a super-precious way, just in a- you've made something or you're
singing something or you're doing something, and that was my beginnings
of it. It got slowly eroded away by the time I went to secondary school
and actually did a GCSE in art, where it was just the worst thing
going. A teacher who was really frustrated by having 30+ kids in a
classroom, trying to teach them about perspective, trying to do a
still-life drawing, it was really basic and it took the joy. Like,
everyone needs to replicate this thing, and if you don't do it using
those materials, then you're going to fail. So it's been a bit of a
journey, to be fair.
the rest of your arts education, did that continue to erase the joy or
were you able to pick up that initial energy you found making stuff
with your mum in the garden?
It had peaks and
waves. Going to university to study fine art, you've got your first
year excitement. I never did a foundation course. I started one and
left after a week, so for me that was the fun experimentation, looking
at loads of artists and reading and having the time to do that, the
time to play and mess about. Obviously, as you progress through, it
becomes the written aspect of the degree, which is just awful for an
arts degree, for me anyway. To be in that situation where academically,
now you're being graded on this artistic thing... I still find it quite
a weird practice. We still grade in a very high-end, privileged,
academia process for these creative outlets. So everyone really is held
to the same account and accord. It depends on which tutor looks at it
at which time, you always have a tutor who loves it and one who
absolutely hates it. It was very up and down, but even after doing a
degree, I naturally just weaved. That's how I've come back to it now,
finding space to create things purely for myself, whether that's out of
joy or out of frustration, on my own terms. It's back to expressive,
emotion, freedom type of creating.
Do you feel like you had to go through the typical university system, all the rigmarole of that, in order to get to this point?
don't know, I actually think, it would have been beautiful if I didn't
need to do that and get into debt. I feel like at the time, I worked
part-time as I went through uni, so I would be in the studio til 5, go
to a shift at the place I was working, stay there til half 10, 11, have
a shower, get up, go to uni. That was my uni life for the most part. I
think potentially, if I wasn't doing that... I wasn't living at home, I
wasn't working to pay bills, I was just going to do the course and
fully immerse myself, it might have been different. But the end result,
with higher education or not with it, if it's something you're
passionate about and you make time for it, it will happen. It might not
happen at a huge scale but it'll happen enough to justify it to you
What type of stuff were you making when you were in uni?
went through- at the beginning, I was in a painterly phase, a lot of
abstract work and layering with colour. I've always been a person who
walks around the city and takes photos, a lot of it is based off scenes
you see. Even though it was very abstract. I would walk round for 4/5
hours and just absorb things.
you know what, so did I. That is like, how I spent my teenage years. I
bet there was point we walked past each other with our little cameras
and never knew in ten years we'd be sitting together recording a
That's how it goes.
used to just get lost, I'd be up in the North Docks taking pictures,
it'd be getting dark and I'd need to figure out how to get back to me
Nan's, the sun is setting.
was really fun, and then it moved from doing that... I don't know why,
I think it's linked in to my unfortunate work ethic now. I switched to
these really intense pencil drawings, I'd take photos and abstract it
and make an ink drawing and abstract that, and project it, and make
these crazy pencil drawings. Some of them were 2 foot wide or a foot
wide, I'd make loads of small marks and they'd take 12 or 14 hours of a
studio session to do. When I graduated, that was my focus. I got really
back into pencil and paper and layering tones and making drawings.
Which is a strange one, but it was quite nice. No one else was doing it
in the course... you know you always have your painters, and your
sculpture-led people, no one was doing the weird drawing thing at the
still think it's like that - drawing is like, too naked or something,
too vulnerable. There's too much skill required, people back off and
don't want to go there.
Yeah, it's interesting.
So you've always had a very process-heavy practice, it sounds like, is that fair to say?
think so yeah, sometimes I don't know what that process is, but for me
it always starts with walking round and looking at things and being
excited or curious about things. Looking at material and what material
would work best to express it, the fact that the first time you do it
might not be the finished things, it's a process of making something.
It might start off as a sketch or a note in your phone, these days,
that's what it is. It naturally develops from there.
How did the switch from art student to arts professional go? How long did that take, was it instant, was it easy?
I don't think I've made the switch yet if I'm honest with you, I don't know.
You're an arts professional, you are! You work in the arts full time.
do, but it doesn't- it's a weird one. It depends what you view the arts
as, I guess that's the crux of it. For me, the arts is more open, so
the day job blends into that whole world of being in the arts. For
some, if you're not painting or you're not in a studio for 12 hours a
day, 7 days a week, are you an artist? Yeah, but, you know... so I
think, post-uni, I got this residency at Metal and I had a free studio
space for a year, which is amazing. Part of that was really strange,
looking back I would have done it totally different. Obviously you're
out of uni, you've got a studio space, but you also because you're out
of uni need to get a full time job, need to earn a living, when can I
come to the studio, how am I going to get there, how am I going to get
home, all that basic stuff comes into play. So it was like, having a
bit of fun. It was really open, which was really nice. It felt quite
easy but never felt like I was a practising artist at that point. It's
only in the last year that it's actually become more officially a
thing. Obviously Liverpool is quite small so people will know your
name, but might not necessarily associate that with you being an
artist. You're in the arts, but are you someone who is practising, as
an artist? I think it's quite different. Obviously being a black woman
and being in the arts, your name gets batted around in a different way,
which I've learned recently. People reach out with you and it's not
opportunities about your art, it's about their project, that is missing
a voice. For me, that tells me that people haven't quite accepted the
practice side of things yet.
Because they just want you for your identity, they don't want you because you work in print, or colour etc.
and I don't think that's limited to me, and I don't think that's
limited to Liverpool. 100% it's not, because so many of us face the
same thing. I have reached the point now where I've become quite
confident in saying no, or why. Give me a wooden spoon and a pot and
I'll stir it, now. Not in a bad way, I'm just going to ask a bunch of
questions and you don't need to know the answer but you need to ask
yourself these questions because something ain't right, here. So
examine that, and go away, and the next person you approach, approach
them with more care and consideration than you've approached me.
And more personalisation, yeah.
Exactly, yeah. It's not unique, I'm sure it's happened to you as well.
I think that switch, where you get to a point where you don't cower in
front of the institution, feel like you have to say yes to every
opportunity because opportunities are scarce and you need to for a
career... it's so powerful to realise that at the end of the day it's
one drop in something, it might not lead to anything else and they're
getting more out of it than you are. They're the ones on full salaries.
pensions, benefits, sick pay, and you're the freelancer. How are they
going to offer you something that's balanced in any way? It's rough.
one of them things isn't it, we just don't learn about the things we
should be learning about. We're not educated in the way that we should
be about money, about how to say no, about self-worth, about how to
manage stress, about how to manage health issues, how to support
people, how to support yourself... all of these things that we make all
the mistakes on and go through all the really shit moments... can I
making sure! We go through these really shit moments, and we suffer
through it and then we learn from it. Life is a learning experience.
Some things should be more shareable so when you come to tackle it,
you're not alone. I know there's someone out there who's gone through
something who can relate to that moment I'm experiencing. Which means
there's hope. We just don't learn about... education is fucked.
what kills me, though - is this new, is this our generation trying to
click things into place? Have people been doing this before and their
efforts have been lost to time? Is our generation also martyring itself
to try and fix stuff, will anything change?
If you think about it, therapy is a really good example. If you know
people who are slightly more privileged, their experience of therapy is
this wonderful, magnificent transformative thing where they go and air
their issues. That's a privileged position to be in. But we don't get
told, I never knew that you can go speak to a therapist and they'll
speak through things that are in your head, messing you up. They'll
rationalise it and help you work through and that's completely normal,
because you can't work through it alone, sometimes. Not knowing that,
not having a parent who is trained as a therapist, not having the funds
to access that way of living and that privilege in itself... it exists,
it's been happening for years, therapy existed before this generation
that is demanding free access, which we are completely entitled to. We
know that there's issues, but those issues only get addressed for the
privileged and everyone else can just suffer, work through it and
figure it out. But we've set this system up over here which is accessed
only by the fortunate.
And we're trying to climb into it.
Exactly - it's madness.
speaking of changing things for the better, one thing you have been
able to achieve because you felt like it was something missing that you
wanted to correct, was by setting up Granby Press. Do you want to
describe what Granby Press is and what it does for any listeners who
Yeah, so Granby Press is in
essence a print studio. So it's based in the L8 area of Liverpool
and... how do I describe it... it's a Risograph studio and the focus is
on print media, and a little bit about communicating what that is,
showing people that it is possible to communicate in other ways that
aren't just verbal. Because especially now, post lockdown, it's quite
intimidating to enter back into conversations in real life with people.
So it's kind of like, we all communicate in different ways, different
mediums, how can we make one print a thing again, because it is a dying
media? To help people communicate in whatever language, whether it is
visually or with words, how can we support that? And by we at the
moment, I mean it's just me. My long term vision is that it won't just
be me, I might not even be involved in the future, who knows.
Yeah, I was going to ask whether you were ever going to bring other people in.
I guess, part of the spur on to make it happen was being fed the
absolute bullshit from the media of, the vibe is working class divide
between white and other. People are stealing things from other people,
vote for this person because they'll bring the jobs back and they'll
support it and then Brexit fucking happened. It's a divide where people
are being attacked on the street. It's like, the news that we are
reading, and we are being fed, obviously is not right and not for us,
so there's the opportunity now on a really local level, I'm talking
like in the space of a 5-10 minute walk for people, making newsletters
and sharing information that's in their voice, that is sent to those
people who need to know that this shop is closing, to get your local
shop you need to go here for the best price. If you want to get your
fruit and veg, they're setting up a cash machine on the corner if you
want to oppose it, a developer's just bought this site.... all this
information, locally. An area can change just overnight by just a few
people coming in and implementing something, if that information is
shared in a really effective way that re-empowers us all. Also for when
the council come a-knockin' and ask to do something, it's like, no no
no, look at this. We know about this and this that's happening, we've
been talking about it, we've been sharing it. So when is this community
meeting, we'll come to it and we'll collectively voice our opinion.
That's a huge ramble, I'm so sorry.
This is the place for you to ramble, you've got the platform, go for it!
one side of it, that's my key, getting that set up. That requires
people locally to be involved and I haven't quite figured out how that
will happen yet because I'm doing it all on days off. The other side is
obviously just printing beautiful things for people whether they are
artists, designers, whether they want to test it out. Being able to
offer that, trying to keep it as affordable as possible, to be like-
you want to know how it works? OK, come in and test print something, if
you like the aesthetic let's figure out how to print a run for you,
what are you after, what do you need it to look like, here's some
examples... all of that stuff, I guess.
OUTPUT went from real life exhibitions to postal exhibitions, we
obviously got in touch with you to produce most of those as well. So if
any listeners received prints from Jon Edgley, Radical Womxn's Dance
Party, Podge, Mali Draper & Dan Waine... am I missing any others? I
think that's it. Of course Sumuyya's as well - they were all produced
at Granby Press and they look great.
It was the first proper print run I've done as a studio, so it was
really nice to get a sneak peek of everyone's work and I hope that
OUTPUT gets the chance to do something else with them all. I know it's
transferred from having a physical space to them being on a two-sided
sheed of a3, it's quite different. But it still blows my mind that
other galleries aren't doing what... I'm going to divert the
conversation... other galleries aren't doing what OUTPUT is doing,
where it's really obvious but really beautiful. Working with a wide
variety of local artists, across the board, whether you're at uni, just
graduated from uni, never been to uni, your first show, whatever your
art practice may be, here's a space, let's have a conversation and
let's see how we can support each other in doing something. Why isn't
that everyone's gallery programme? They've all so much fucking money as
I know, I know! Imagine if OUTPUT had the budget of Tate. We'll see, we'll see!
You'll be shopping in Cos every week.
finally look like a curator! I'd never want to do that. I want to wear
band t-shirts and playstation hoodies. Anyway, back to the
conversation... so getting on to the work that you made for OUTPUT,
this is a bit of a leading question because I saw you post a little
about it on Instagram as well. How has your practice flourished - I
think it's flourished - over the pandemic? The print you've done, for
anyone who has not seen it yet, it's again a Riso print but it
incorporates elements of painting, colour and poetry as well.
Flourish is such a good word.
it has - you're everywhere! You were like - I don't know if this was a
fever dream, but you did stuff for England football club?
I did! The FA! I forgot about that.
You've done loads.
Sorry if you're sick of seeing my shit, I apologise.
Your stuff is everywhere. It's amazing.
It's annoying. I shouldn't say that - it's proper boss. I guess, where
the print came from, is- for me, I've had a really fortunate lockdown,
really really fortunate. I'm not going to lie about it in the
slightest. Part of that is due to absolute graft, I'm knackered. I'm
shattered. I'm done. The bags under my eyes, my parents comment on them
weekly now, that's how bad it is. Yeah, soz mum if you're listening but
you do. I basically took a gamble, so to speak, partly being really
frustrated by some of the stuff I was seeing and then partly being
really inspired, by the Liverpool stuff I was delving into, the
independent scene, artists and collectives. I'm not gonna lie, the
majority of them were people of colour who obviously we all reached a
point last year where it was just, enough is e-fucking-nough. Come on.
Human decency at its most basic is being violated at every turn, we are
sick of it, let's speak up, let's scream, let's speak up, let's keep
speaking up, let's contact people. That, in itself, just gave me this
energy. I express myself visually, and that's just what I started
doing, visually expressing myself and sharing it with people. From
that, people started to get in touch and I know in part it is because
you look and you're like, I need to find a black, female artist to fit
this thing for a job. I accepted some of those jobs, I asked questions,
and there was conversations around it, but I was like - this is an
exciting opportunity, let's jump on it. One of them was like, I
e-mailed a bunch of organisations I'd worked with in Liverpool who had
posted those fucking black squares and said, black lives matter? What
are you doing? I'm local, I'm a punter, I'm a visitor to your gallery,
what are you doing? I'm not gonna lie, the majority of people just gave
really shit responses and I'm not surprised about it. Do you want to
come and have a zoom chat with us? No, because I'm not part of your
board, you're not paying me a consultancy fee to come and advise you,
I'm asking a question.
I'm sorry but even if they do pay you a consultancy fee, like, what's that?
just like, I'm asking you a really basic question that any member of
the public is entitled to ask you, and you're telling me - oh, we've
got a board meeting in a month to discuss it. Can we get back to you
then? If you can't tell me something from the get-go, what are you
They're run by public money as well, so it's just an extra kick in the face, isn't it?
exactly. I'm only one person asking a question, I'm sure I'm not the
only one who e-mailed. But some people were really receptive, like
Everyman Playhouse. Their director at the time was just like, thanks
for getting in touch Sumuyya, obviously like, usual sharing of
information but also like, I've been looking at your posts and seeing
online things, would you be up for a conversation because I'd like to
ask some questions but also you can ask me some questions? It didn't
feel like a board thing, it felt like it could be a good conversation
and through that I ended up doing these posters for them and it's nice
because it also meant I can mention, I got opportunities to write a
little thing for Ethos magazine and through that, the Everyman saw
someone else and now they're doing a little jazz residency. I always
say, it's this thing of, I'm a big mouth online, in person it depends
on the situation. My thing is always mentioning other people. Part of
that- what was it called? There was a little fund, the wall thing.
What was that called? I can't remember. Was it through Culture Liverpool?
and doing that was great because I got to work with five other people
and say to the Bluecoat, can we use your wall, these are the people
that will be on it.
Do you want to name who you chose?
so we had, Jamel Burke wrote a piece that was about Blundell, who set
up the Bluecoat, and Blundell Street, where it was. Amber Akaunu -
apologies Amber if I've said your surname wrong, it's really bad of me
if I have.
Salma did one didn't she?
Salma Noor, Kiara Mohamed, he did a piece, and Millie Olateju also did
a piece. It's really nice, because everyone identifies as black, which
is magic, and we're all in Liverpool. So when people say there's no
artists of colour in Liverpool, it's absolute bullshit. That's just a
small teaser of visual art, that's not even touching on music or
writing or poetry or anything else. That's purely visual art, and most
of those people have a multi-disciplinary practice as well.
like that are really great because it's like, guys, do you want to do
something collectively? It's authored by you, it's your piece of work,
are you happy for it to be included in this very small thing. It's part
of an institutions wall, so now they have to do something, they have to
respond, they have to respect us. If you want to do a show, email them!
Now we all have each other's emails, that's the other thing. People are
accessible, nobody needs to be a gate keeper. If you actually are
running an institution and you want to cater for these fucking
audiences that you claim to want to cater for, these hard-to-reach
audiences, be accessible! Why is no one in your curatorial team
accessible to anyone in the community? It's BS, come on.
because, I feel like we know the answers. They don't want to speak to
people, they're only interested in like, a certain sect of people who
are achieving and already exhibiting and already got a cultural cachet.
They don't do INPUT events, they should!
really should. The thing is, they'd do them but I don't know if they'd
listen. This isn't everyone, you always get people who are really
trying to change it. That's a bigger question - should we still be
trying to change things or should we just be setting up our own things?
That's a whole other kettle of fish but I'm very pro-the other way.
always have people who go into it, hand on heart, wanting to do the
things that they chat about in the pub. Obviously these places aren't
going to change, why would they? They're getting all the money.
It's not in their interests to change.
Exactly. It's like - we need to do something else.
question I wanted to ask, in terms of all the different outcomes for
your work over the past year, how do you balance the art side of things
with the design side? Often you work across the two.
balancing thing I'm still trying to figure out, if I'm totally honest.
I guess - it's a weird one, I'm a freelancer, self-employed but also
fully-employed in a job that is also within the arts. I also like to
create art for joy, just for my own self expression and mental health.
Sometimes the one thing that I should prioritise, creating art for my
own benefit, falls to the wayside. The balance of designing is, if it's
something really exciting to me that I think I could offer something
valuable to, and I'll learn while doing it, then I'll put it as a
priority. That's only changed in the past 4 or 5 months. There's a
moment where you know you're in demand, not crazy in demand, but you
know... it's like, oh, freelancing isn't just a slog, it's nice to be
getting paid to do work. There's the fear, what if I never get another
freelance job, so I've just got to say yes. I'm out of that, the fear's
still there but the saying yes to everything has stopped. That just
happens, we all go through it, it happens at different stages for
different people. Right now the designing of things happens when it's
something that is really exciting, or interesting, or that I think will
be a beneficial learning curve for me, I'll do it.
that busy-ness, having a job and your freelance work, and then you've
got the art on top of that, that almost feels like the most free stuff
but the stuff that you don't have time for... where does your
inspiration come in? Like, who are the artists that you're interested
in. Who are the people or the writers or the musicians? Who are you
I guess social media has really
bad points, but it is also, during lockdown, I've taken it as more of
an inspiration route. Seeing places like Home, by Ronan McKenzie, in
London being set up. Joy getting a show. Their work I've been following
for years and I finally bought one of Joy's prints, which I'm buzzed
about because I saved up to get it.
my generation of artists come through and get shows whether that is
within institutions or a small-scale independent, a group of friends
that have set something up, it makes me think - this is possible, and
exciting, and beautiful to see. We all watch each other and support
each other and follow each other and comment when we see things -
that's what an art community should be. It shouldn't be, getting paid a
million, getting paid these ridiculous amounts of money. Everyone wants
to earn a decent paycheck and wishes they could be the next big things
but the reality of an art practice, for me, is seeing my contemporaries
do well, having opportunities, making work and being paid for it. Being
able to visit their shows and interact. Part of it is social media,
Whatsapp groups even, being part of it. Seeing people buzzing about
something, whether its a book, a movie, an album just dropped. The
Jazmine Sullivan album dropped and everyone was like, fuck yes! This is
what we need! Just moments of collective recognition of other, there's
more than just me in a shit moment out there. There's things we can
take with us and hold with us. Whether we use it to create a piece of
work or just get through the day, like. That's the inspiration. It's
very vague. There's the OG painters and people that are really
inspiring and the contemporaries now, seeing all these black painters
come to the forefront and get these shows and get these commissions and
be in the moment, that's amazing. On a level below that, there's really
exciting things happening and spaces being set up and people taking
charge and even with the billboard stuff, and the way that art is
viewed, where it can be on a bus stop, or a wall, and you can walk past
it or be on the bus and glimpse it. The ways in which we view art has
changed. It's inspiring to follow people online who are doing that, who
are actively putting art out there in different ways, if that makes
does, it totally does. So maybe then to end this interview, will you
please describe the print that you made for OUTPUT and tell us your
thinking behind it?
so the print for OUTPUT, I really struggled and I knew I had to make a
print way in advance of making it. But I'm a last minute person. It's
awful to say but I fully admit it and I've always been this way. But I
panic and then I make something.
your process, that's fine, there's no need to feel guilty for that! I'm
the opposite - as soon as I get the thing I'll do it and then forget
about it for a month.
I'm the type of person
who will make 20 drafts - when someone's expecting 3, I'll make 20. So
that's just my work process. For this it was like - what do I want to
say? I also had the really privileged position of printing a few of
these posters people have done, and I was really torn about - Radical
Womxn's Dance Party was so informative and vital and this huge
resource. Do I want to be a resource? How do I be a resource? I was
over-thinking it and I lost the thing, how do I feel right now? I'm
knackered, I don't know what to do, I like making art and making stuff
about figures. I'm exploring painting in my own time. How can I merge
all this together? That was the thinking behind it, it sounds really
daft, but it's really simple. I'm just a woman who is- not at the end
of my tether, but I'm doing too much. I need a little bit of a break,
but I love doing it, so I want to make something beautiful. It's
abstract, a bit obscure, it's obviously a woman's face but strokes have
covered out all of the features. That's basically it, how I'm feeling
right now. I wrote a thing on the back which is just, I sat and wrote
it. I'm not a writer, I'm not a poet, but- you know when you just need
to say something? At the end of it, I needed to say to myself, you are
joy. Just remember, at the end of it all, it isn't a big thing, just
get through the day. It's not some big transformative thing but it is
for me. I hope for other people it's a nice thing to look at.
gorgeous! Obviously the poem on the back is more contemplative but the
image does feel like there's joy in it. There's so much energy because
of how you've put the picture together. Do you want to just also
quickly describe what a riso print is, for anyone that isn't familiar?
I've realised we're talking about it because we both know what it is.
I guess the way I would describe it, a mixture of screenprinting and a
photocopier. So, the machine reads everything in grayscale but outputs
in colour. It's like screenprinting because you print one colour at a
time and it's in a grayscale tone, is how you set it up. Because it is
soya based ink you can create really beautiful tones and colours,
depending on how you lay each layer down - what colour you print on top
of another colour might produce a happy surprise, or a bit of a mess.
It's quite an unpredictable way of printing. If you want a beautiful,
clean, really precise print, don't do riso. Over the past 15 years it's
been used by a lot of graphic designers and artists as a way to create
things in a new visual way. It's exciting, it's nice that it is
soya-based, it's not a huge amount of setup and I like the fact that
every print is different because it always misaligns. There's this
really unique quality to it. But it's not for everyone. The most
difficult thing in relation to the press I have found is saying no to
people, not because I don't want to print it, just because their
expectations are so radically different to what this machine can do. We
can test it but it's not going to look like that, there's no way I can
get A to look like B and if you can't deal with the potential of C then
don't do it.
funny as well because I think, if you didn't know what a riso print
was, the people that we send the prints out to only ever get one of
them. So they'll never be able to put two alongside each other and
compare them and see what you're talking about. But it is there, and I
also just wanted you to explain it because you've used so many colours
on your print, so it must have taken forever.
only four colours... that's the layering. It's playing around with it
and seeing what's possible. It could have been really dull and dark,
and that might have worked, but it actually turned out to be fairly
bright and colourful and expressive, which is amazing.
looks great, thank you for making it. Unfortunately for any listeners,
they've all gone. They got claimed very very quickly. If you're
listening and you're interested in receiving a postal print, we've got
more to come that are getting produced by Sumuyya at Granby Press, so
just keep an eye out. If you want to see pictures of the print, just go
to outputgallery.com and there's images of both sides, the portrait and
the poem. You can find out a little more about Sumuyya, unless this
podcast has filled in all the gaps. Where can people find you on the
internet, you can find me on... depends what you're looking for. If you
want visual stuff, instagram is the way, which is just my name,
@sumuyya. If you want a bit more social commentary, a bit more
engagement, a bit more actual reactions to the shit that goes on,
twitter - also @sumuyyaa with an extra a. I have a website, sometimes a
What's your website?
Just sumuyyakhader.com, it's difficult to spell, you'll probably spell it wrong but that's OK.
be on the title of this podcast, don't worry, it's fine! Thank you so
much for speaking to me and we'll see you listeners on the next
podcast. Bye bye!